IronBladder
Registered user
Global user
Registered: 03-2006
Posts: 9
Karma: 1 (+1/-0)
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
The Baptismal Formula
The Baptismal Formula; is it “Jesus Christ?”
1. That the exact wordings and even the Greek prepositions differ widely between these so called baptismal proof texts found at Acts 2, 8, 10, and 19 is devastating to your position. At Acts 2 we read “in (epi) the name Jesus Christ,” at Acts 8 and 19 we read; “in (eis) the name Lord Jesus,” and lastly at Acts 10 we read; “in (ev) the name Lord.” If a baptismal formula were really being given here, then it would not differ so widely between its various usages in Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19. The only explanation, is that the word “name” (onoma) means “authority,” as in “stop in the name of the law,” and this is how Luke uses the term “onoma.” Notice that “name” (onoma) is used this way by Luke in Acts 4:7, where it is juxtaposed with the word “power.”
2. The reference to the Holy Spirit in Acts 19:2-3, further confirms Matthew 28:19 as baptism being upon the authority of the one God who is not simply Jesus, but is Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Paul meets certain disciples of John, and asks if they received the Holy Spirit since they believed. When they reply that they don't know who the Holy Spirit is (Acts 19:2), Paul then immediately asks how then were you baptised (verse 3). He did this because he knew that the name ‘Holy Spirit,’ is referred to at the Matthew 28:19 baptismal command. So if “Jesus Christ” is the proper baptismal formula, then Paul's question “into what then were you baptised?” does not make any sense, because it would be a complete change of subject from his question.
3. To baptise upon the name of the “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19), is to baptise according to Acts 2:38, because both these passages imply the authority for baptism.
4. You cannot really understand the baptismal formula, apart from a study of the Aaronic blessing formula at Numbers 6:24-26. This specific blessing was used by the priests constantly in the Old Testament Scripture, but when it is it is simply referred to in a shortened summary form. This is why we read of Levi blessing the people “in his name” (Deuteronomy 10:8), and the priests being commanded “to bless in the name of the LORD,” (Deuteronomy 21:50) or “to give a blessing in his name forever.” (1st Chronicles 23:13). So God does not need to slavishly repeat the entire Aaronic blessing word for word every time that it was used, and this shortened form “in his name” or “in the name of the Lord” refers directly back to the Numbers 6 formula. So you can see that your four baptismal passages in the book of Acts, mirrors exactly the way that the Aaronic blessing formula was used and referred to in Jewish cultural usage.
5. My main problem with your position is not that I disagree with it, but that the implications are that Trinitarians like myself are not saved (i.e. Luther, Wesley and Jonathan Edwards are in hell). However, in my opinion our love towards God and so our hearts should count more than religious works, and I’m certain that God will recognise sprinkling, immersion or pouring, and even if no formula or an incorrect formula of words is used. However you can’t say this yourself of Trinitarians, and so you must claim that we’re all lost and going to hell, which is why your so obsessive about baptism and getting the mode and formula exactly right. I find this ‘hard hearted dogmatism,’ which claims that God will damn a man to hell on a mere technicality, utterly objectionable. Love is not enough, and neither is the cross or even the reception of the Holy Spirit in Oneness. But our works must be exactly right in order to get us into heaven, because our relationship with God starts and is even based upon our own deeds; namely correct baptism and speaking in tongues. So the God of Oneness only loves us through our works for him, yet my Bible says that God loves and justifies the ungodly, not the Godly: see Romans 4:5.
|
|
6/12/2007, 3:54 pm
|
Send Email to IronBladder
Send PM to IronBladder
|
BLN
Moderator
Global user
Registered: 01-2009
Posts: 5
Karma: 4 (+4/-0)
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: The Baptismal Formula
Oneness Pentecostalism teaches the baptism in the name of Jesus. Orthodox Christianity teaches the baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Witness Lee, the former leader of the Local Church made an attempt to combine both. According to his doctrine, a person can be baptized in either way and it will be the same because Jesus Christ is the Triune God - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So, sometimes people are baptized in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, sometimes in the name of Jesus Christ.
Witness Lee often said that Christ is the Triune God - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, not just the Son. This is also what Oneness Pentecostalism teaches. The Bible does not say that Christ is God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. Actually, Witness Lee tried to combine Oneness Pentecostalism doctrine with the orthodox Christianity and sometimes referred to Christ as to the Son.
Actually, his doctrine of the Trinity is quite complicated. It says that, on the one hand, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are different and distinct. On the other hand, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one - the Father is the Son, and the Son is the Holy Spirit. However, more often, Witness Lee said that the Father is the Son, and Christ (the Son) became the life-giving Spirit (the Holy Spirit). He used Isaiah 9:6 and John 10:30 to support the first part (that Christ is the Father) and 1 Corinthians 15:45 and 2 Corinthians 3:17 to support the second part (that Christ is the Holy Spirit). Although 1 Corinthians 15:45 says that the last Adam became the life-giving Spirit, it does not say that Christ became the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 9:6 does not say that Christ is God the Father either.
|
|
1/13/2009, 9:45 am
|
Send Email to BLN
Send PM to BLN
|
FJRB
Administrator
Global user
Registered: 11-2006
Location: USA
Posts: 113
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Baptism of the Holy Spirit Re: The Baptismal Formula
After my lengthy involvement in cults, I asked a charsimatic pastor friend of mine:
Pastor Steve,
I wonder if I could have lost the Baptism of the Holy Spirit during my involvement in false religions. I know I received the Baptism at a RAD Nite Bible study group in high school; and I have always been a bit shy about speaking in tongues (or, for the most part, even speaking in English). Do I need to receive the Baptism again? I would like to have the gift of tongues without ungodly fear again; and a friend from another church has invited me to be water-baptized again to receive that gift again. She claims that she came up out of the water speaking in tongues after she was re-baptized. Out of curiosity, I visited her church a couple of times on (Wednesday nights); and, last Wednesday, she insisted that I go for counseling for baptism. The woman who talked about it with me told me I could be baptized again as often as I thought necessary, and it would be perfectly OK. She insisted that I needed to be baptized in Jesus' Name (this is at an apostolic church); and I told her that I already had. I gave her a brief synopsis of my spiritual history, including that I had publicly renounced my involvement in false religions by being rebaptized and that I didn't think it was necessary for me to again be rebaptized in water. But she wouldn't take "no" for an answer. I don't think the Lord wants me to change churches right now or to be rebaptized right now either, even though I'm sure He wants me to open up more and worship Him more in Spirit and in Truth. Last Wednesday, the water in the baptismal was too hot for baptism.
The above was the opening paragraph. Below is a copy of the baptismal formula that my friend's church recommends before a person can receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (with speaking in tongues).
---
Solely in the service of Yeshua Ha'Mashiach,
Renee
|
|
1/15/2009, 7:14 am
|
Send Email to FJRB
Send PM to FJRB
Blog
|
FJRB
Administrator
Global user
Registered: 11-2006
Location: USA
Posts: 113
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: The Baptismal Formula
The lady who wanted to baptize me gave me a list of steps for Baptism in the Holy Spirit (exactly as the list is written):
FOLLOW THESE STEPS WITH THE CANDIDATE
I. Have them REPENT:
A. What does it mean to Repent?
Ans. Repent has three parts, as follows:
1. Acknowledge “I’ve sinned, I’m a sinner”.
2. Be sorry you’ve sinned against God.
3. Ask God to forgive you.
4. Be willing to turn away from your sin and accept Jesus as your Lord and Master, the one you will obey. Give Jesus permission to control your life.
II. Administer FORGIVENESS::
A. Forgive:
Matthew 6:14 & 15 – For if ye forgive men their trespasses your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But, if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Explain to Candidate – If you want Jesus to forgive your sins, you must forgive everybody that you feel has ever done you wrong. Have them bow their head and pray to God in secret. Lord I forgive Grandmother, Lord I forgive Aunt Mary, I forgive Johnny and Frank, and have them call each one by name. Not out loud, in their mind, as they talk to God. God can read their mind.
III. PRAY for them.
After person has repented and gone through process of forgiving – Pray to God for their forgiveness. Ask God to remove all hurts suffered and erase it from their memory and remove the pain.
IV. ADMINISTER DELIVERANCE to them:
All sin is of the devil and is from his spirit. It cannot be seen but is very real and sinful. You must bind all spirits of sin and cast them out. “These signs shall follow them that believe. In my name shall they cast out devils”, these are the words of Jesus. You as a believer have the power.
You may quietly pray, In the Name of Jesus Christ, I bind every demonic and evil spirit. In the name of Jesus I command these spirits not to demonstrate and to come out right now. I command every family curse to be broken and every assignment of Satan to be canceled right now in Jesus Name.
After you binds the spirits “in the name of Jesus”, command them to leave their body and never return. Command the door to be shut so they can never return. Ask God to step in and minister Love, Joy, and Peace to their soul. Ask him to prepare their heart by faith to receive his gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ask God to give them an appetite for reading the Word, also the spirit of prayer and fasting. Ask God to give them an appetite to seek the Face of God, for his will and to stay in his presence.
V. ASK:
Have Candidate Ask –
Luke 11:9 – 11 states “And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you, Seek, and ye shall find, Knock, and the door shall be opened unto you.”
“For every one that asketh, receiveth, and he that seeketh, findeth, and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? , or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?, or, if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
If ye then being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?”
Have the candidate bow his head and silently pray in his or her own words, asking the Lord to:
1. Please give me the Holy Ghost!
2. Today!
3. Speaking in other tongues! (That’s the only way it comes.)
Instruct them that when they finish to open their eyes. (This will only take a short time.)
VI. IT’S TIME TO RECEIVE:
Explain to the Candidate – You must RECEIVE the Holy Ghost. You may explain, If I have a million dollars in my hand and tell you here, this money is yours, you will not really own it until you reach out and receive it from me. Reach out and accept it. Before you even accept it you would say “Thank You” as you reach for it. You know it’s already yours.
Also explain – “When you feel the anointing of Jesus come upon you, Jesus is ready right then to give you the Holy Ghost.
What is the Anointing?
Ans. The Spirit of God. It may feel like:
1. A sensation – Good Feeling
2. An emotion of Love. You may start to cry or smile.
3. A warm or cozy feeling.
4. Like something moving through your body.
5. None of it will hurt you. All of it will be a wonderful feeling.
Instruct them to:
1. Relax
2. Talk in your normal voice.
3. For children – Tell them to use their playground voice. (Loud, so we can hear you speak, and so they can hear, themselves.
4. Quench not the Spirit. Don’t try to stop God. Let Him work with you as you work with Him.
5. No one is going to take your mouth and talk for you. You are going to do the talking. Jesus puts the words in your mouth and you say it out. You and Jesus working together.
Remind them: DON’T FORGET – When you feel the anointing of Jesus come upon you, Jesus is ready right then to give you the Holy Ghost and you begin to speak in other tongues.
VII. WORSHIP
Instruct them to begin to Worship God. What does it mean to Worship?
1. Love and adore Him.
2. Have passion and strong feelings for Him. Involve your emotions. In other words fall in love with Him.
3. Exalt Him.
4. Talk to Him in your mind. He’s listening to you.
5. let your praise come from your heart.
6. Give thanks for the Holy Ghost in your heart before you hear yourself speaking in other tongues, because you know He is going to give it to you. Remember: Every one that asketh, receiveth.
7. Crown Him King of your life.
VIII. LAYING ON OF HANDS:
As they Worship, you lay hands on them and pray the Anointing down upon them. Pray for the Lord to fill them with the Holy Ghost. The anointing will usually come very quickly and very strong, IF they are worshipping. Encourage them to go ahead and praise the Lord.
When the Lord touches them they usually begin to cry or go into a stammering lip and you say “that’s right talk to Him. (Never tell them what to say.) As you tell them to talk to God, the Lord will lead them right into the tongues.
If you hear stammering lips you may say, “Yes that sounds like Him, that’s the way he talks. (Ish. 28:11 – “For with Stammering Lips and another tongues will he speak to this people. To whom He said, this is the Rest wherewith ye may cause the worry to Rest; and this is the refreshing.”
IX. God will fill them with the Holy Ghost if they have met these requirements.
X. You should encourage them to speak fluently. This helps to alleviate any doubt the devil may try to bring later when he tells them you don’t have the Holy Ghost.
After they are speaking in tongues, tell them to:
1. Say it to God every way you can say it.
2. You may say, let Him say something else to you.
3. Listen to Jesus’ beautiful words!
4. Now you know that it’s Jesus!
There are many things you can say to them to help them understand it’s all right to talk all those funny words. It helps raise their faith to receive all that God has for them.
I just wonder if this is a good way to receive a rebaptism of the Holy Spirit? Something doesn't set well with me about the way this particular church does this, especially since they say that the Holy Spirit is a thing and not a Person and since they are so pushy. What do you think?
---
Solely in the service of Yeshua Ha'Mashiach,
Renee
|
|
1/15/2009, 7:16 am
|
Send Email to FJRB
Send PM to FJRB
Blog
|
FJRB
Administrator
Global user
Registered: 11-2006
Location: USA
Posts: 113
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: The Baptismal Formula
What really bothered me about my friend's church (beside the complete chaos and confusion) is that the church insisted that I needed to be re-baptized, by someone at their church--solely in the Name of Jesus. I told them a brief synopsis of my spiritual walk (that I accepted Jesus as my Savior when I was a young child, was baptized a few years later, got sucked into abusive and false religions during vulnerable times in my life, later realized that I had really messed up, privately repented, was publicly re-baptized--to hold myself publicly accountable, and not by force, but out of choice--and was seeking re-baptism in the Holy Spirit. This wasn't good enough for them, though. They have this really strange idea that a person can be baptized as often as they like, as long as it is in the Name of Jesus (not in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit). The main person who was trying to convince me to be baptized that night said she has herself rebaptized any time of the day or night any day or night that she feels spiritually dirty. That is an abuse of the ordinance, IMHO. What a person should do when he or she feels spiritually unclean is repent. I repent any time I realize I do something wrong; but I don't have myself rebaptized every time I do something wrong.
I'm sorry if I seem so upset. It's just that it grieves me to see one more church abusing biblical ordinances. My friend's church seems like a cult with a lot of peer pressure, mind control, exclusivistic teachings, spiritual superiority, emotionalism more than sound doctrine, etc. Anyway, my pastor friend's wife responded to my email (next post).
---
Solely in the service of Yeshua Ha'Mashiach,
Renee
|
|
1/15/2009, 7:27 am
|
Send Email to FJRB
Send PM to FJRB
Blog
|
FJRB
Administrator
Global user
Registered: 11-2006
Location: USA
Posts: 113
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: The Baptismal Formula
Dear Renee,
That’s quite a question. Personally I think it is ridiculous to get hung up on whether a person was baptized in the “name of Jesus” or in the “name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.” The phrase in the Bible, “in the Name of Jesus” is not simply referring to repeating the saying but to the authority of the name. We have power in the “name” or authority of Jesus. It’s this authority, not the quoting of His name that gives us power over the devil. Remember the story of the sons of Skieva? They quoted the name of Jesus but had no real power because they had no relationship with Jesus.
If you were baptized after recommitting your life to God you shouldn’t need to do it again. The best explanation for you would be found in the Discipleship Course where Steve deals with the different kinds of baptisms. He talks about water baptism as well as spirit baptism. It is somewhere in the lessons on The Foundational Doctrines of Christ which I believe are lessons 5-10.
As for your concern over whether you have the prayer language or not, simply ask God for it. It is not the same as being baptized in the Holy Spirit although the two often come together. You will have to speak and work through your own timidity. Ask God to free you from the timidity which is not but pride and fear. He will touch you.
I hope this helps. I see no reason for you to return to that church. Their doctrine is a little different from what you have been raised up around. It could end up confusion you on various subjects.
Blessings,
Carrie
My response:
Dear Carrie,
Thank you for your prompt response. Please forgive me for not responding until now. Your response was very helpful. When I knelt to pray at my seat after the Wednesday night service two weeks ago, my friend thought it would be better for someone else to lay hands on me and pray for me. Seeing nothing wrong with that, I agreed to be prayed for. However, when the person who wanted to pray for me also insisted that I needed to be re-rebaptized, that was too much. I still thank God that the baptistry water was too hot that night for a baptism (the first time that had ever happened at that church, according to the staff there). Last Tuesday, I prayed that the Lord would again confirm His will through a specific sign if He wanted me to be re-rebaptized, or through a different specific sign if He didn't want me to be re-re-baptized. He confirmed to me that He did NOT want me to be re-rebaptized. Friday morning, during the prayer portion of the Women's Ministry Bible study at my church, the Lord restored to me the gift of tongues! Next time I talk to my apostolic friend, I will tell her of that answer to prayer and that I don't believe that it is God's will for me to be re-rebaptized (especially since baptism in her church is the same as joining that church--something that she wasn't willing to inform me of). Thank you for your prayers. Please also pray with me that the Lord will give my apostolic friend more discernment. Thanks.
God bless you.
Last edited by FJRB, 1/15/2009, 7:38 am
---
Solely in the service of Yeshua Ha'Mashiach,
Renee
|
|
1/15/2009, 7:37 am
|
Send Email to FJRB
Send PM to FJRB
Blog
|
BLN
Moderator
Global user
Registered: 01-2009
Posts: 5
Karma: 4 (+4/-0)
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: The Baptismal Formula
I would say, there are several opinions regarding the baptism in the Holy Spiit in Christianity. Some believe that the baptismin the Holy Spirit is for the Church and not for individual Christians. Some believe that a Christian shoul receive personal baptism in the Holy Spirit, but speaking in tongues is not the necessary sign of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Pentecostals and Charismatics believe in individual baptism in the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues as its confirmation.
I personally do not believe that it is necessary to speak in tongues as a sign of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit. I believe that manifestations may be different. However, I do not deny that speaking in tongues can be one of these manifestations. It is the Holy Spirit who gives manifestations, and who are we, human beings, to tell Him what manifestation He should give? The Bible does not say that spiaking in tongues is a necessary sign of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Even many Pentecostals admit that speaking in tongues may be false. What is most important in receiving the Holy Spirit is faith and proper condition of the heart and not the speaking in tongues itself.
I had some contacts with Pentecostalism and Charismatic movement. I experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit in their sense. I have a gift of speaking in tongues, though actually I practice it very seldom because I am not so much for Pentecostalism now. So, at least, I do not doubt that I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, even in Pentecostal sense.
Regarding the baptism in water, I was baptized in LC. I do not remember if they baptized me in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit or in the name of Jsus Christ. LC have many unbiblical and even heretical doctrines. So, I am not sure if their baptism is effective and sufficient. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses baptize people, but probably no one (except) JWs will say that their baptism is effective.
When I got batized by LC, I did not know anything about them. However, I had already received Jesus Christ as my Savior and was consecrated to God. My intention in being baptized was to fulfill Christ's commandment and to fully consecrate myself to God. I did not believe in any LC doctrines, including their doctrine of baptism, because I did not know them yet. I believed only in the orthodox Christian teaching. So, my intention was correct, but the place was wrong.
I do not like the idea of repetitive baptism which is practiced in the Local Church as well. However, probably, I should be baptized again in the proper place.
I believe that people who left heretical groups, should be baptized in an orhtodox Chrisitan church after they have received Jesus Christ as their Savior. In Acts, apostle Paul met some people who Apollos had preached. They were baptized by the baptism of John the Baptist who baptized people after they repented and believed in Christ who was going to come. That baptism was correct for the time of John the Baptist's ministry. However, it was not sufficient for Christians. So, Paul baptized them again in the name of Jesus Christ (not necessary with this exact baptismal formula). I think here, there is a principle that if the first baptism was incorrect or insufficient (for example, because it was carried out in a heretical group), the second baptism is needed.
|
|
1/16/2009, 12:12 pm
|
Send Email to BLN
Send PM to BLN
|
Add a reply
Link to us
- Blogs
- Hall of Honour
- Chat
|
You are not logged in (login)
Board's time is: 11/28/2009, 3:44 am
|
|
|
