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WarriorPoet
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Re: Chivalry or future self-defense?
quote:
Zilla Tatsushin wrote:
I challenge your sources there, buddy. I have read the bible over many times the past five years, and I don't recall a command to attack only from the front. However, I do believe that seld defense resulting in the death of the offender is right only if the offender was going to do you serious harm and there was no other way out of it. And by serious harm, I mean death.
quote:
- To never to refuse a challenge from an equal
I accept! 
You're right, a surprise attack is not inherently sinful, and if it were you or I it would not be a sin, at least not if it were purely done in self defense or defense of others. Though Billy did it in vengeance, which the Bible does have quite a bit to say about. Also (at least in the story), Billy was under specific orders from God not to carry out any surprise attacks.
quote:
Beware, O knight, of easy prey
Who stand with back yet turned
For cowards strike a blinded foe
And die for what they've burned
-The Candlestone, pg107
Later on, the professor interprets the verse, and instructs him that he is not to carry out any surprise attacks. Frying Palin was also an act of disobedience to the professor as well as God.
--- How do you learn to live? Prepare for death.
How do you prepare for death? Learn to live.
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1/24/2005, 11:42 pm
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Clefspeare
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Re: Chivalry or future self-defense?
Before WarriorPoet and Zilla draw swords (face to face, of course), I'll step in and tell you what was in my thinking as I created this scenario.
We often have a set system of morality in our minds that we act upon, a code of conduct that seems right to us. Sometimes, however, an authority figure will alter those rules, and we have to decide whether or not to follow the authority rather than our own code. Sometimes the authority will ask us to follow a higher calling than what we consider fair and just. In those cases, since that person is in authority, we should submit, because he is outlining a path that is straighter and narrower than our own. In other words, he seeks to improve our vision and call us to even more sacrifice and discipline than we knew before.
If an authority calls us to a lower standard, however, then we have a decision to make. Is this really an authority that we should honor? Should we obey God rather than men? We are bound to God, so we may have to politely refuse the "authority" or else cleverly offer an alternative, as Daniel did when he was told to eat the king's food.
I intentionally created the dilemma to provoke thought. Sure, there's good reason to fry Palin to the bone. He was dangerous and could easily later threaten the lives of those Billy loved. But the command from Billy's authority rang clear, even at the time of the decision. Here's the quote.
The professor’s words responded like an echoing call. "Considering the words of this prophecy, we can assume that God has ordained that we carry out no surprise attacks. Do you understand?"
Billy understood . . . but he didn’t care. Palin had sliced his throat, beat up his mom and Walter, and tossed him into a trunk like a bag of dirty laundry. Palin had tried to kill him and Bonnie once before; he was sure to try again. It was time to light this torch and let it blaze.
So should he obey the authority and trust God to protect his loved ones? Or should he take matters into his own hands and ensure victory? My idea was that Billy should trust that God knew what He was doing by sending an authority Billy revered. He could have either confronted Palin directly, believing that God would use him to protect the innocent, or he should guard the girls in silence, thus shielding them from harm.
But Billy's rage provoked him. Vengance drove his decision. Bad idea. Yet God used it for good, clearly showing Billy the rage in his heart that needed to be cleansed by Christ. This event and the reading of Bonnie's prayer showed him that he needed saving faith.
What would have happened if he had shown mercy to Palin. We don't know for sure. But the third book gives a veiled clue as Billy has another decision to make that has some parallels.
As a father, I frequently tell my offspring that they might not understand the philosophy behind my standards and rules. They may even disagree with them. But I would never call them to a lower standard than their own. If they wish to walk a narrower road than I allow, then I congratulate them on their desire to sacrifice. But if my standards are higher, I tell them that they are called to submit to my authority even if they don't understand or agree.
Please feel free to continue the debate and ask me for any clarifications.
When WarriorPoet and Zilla go to battle, I want a front row seat. Popcorn anyone?
Edited for crummy spelling.
Last edited by Clefspeare, 1/26/2005, 10:39 am
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Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24)
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1/25/2005, 7:47 am
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knightofhyn
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Re: Chivalry or future self-defense?
::Pulls up a stump.:: I like popcorn.
I do have to side with WP. It wasn't a biblical reference, but that very quote that I was thinking of. There was a biblical quote that came to mind, but "vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord" is not complete enough for me to be sure that it isn't taken out of context or incorrect (like the statement that "money is the root of all evil" which is an incorrect quote that people have been using for years.)
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Dreaming frees the soul, energizes the spirit and allows you to do things that would get you thrown in jail if you really tried them.
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1/25/2005, 10:08 am
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Clefspeare
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Re: Chivalry or future self-defense?
quote:
WarriorPoet wrote:
I did a bit of quick research on chivalry (the formal stuff ), and found that there really isn't a code that was decided upon once and for all. It changed through the ages according to the times. Here's one that I liked though. It originates from Charlemagne around 800 AD:
quote:
- To fear God and maintain His Church
- To serve the liege lord in valour and faith
- To protect the weak and defenseless
- To give succour to widows and orphans
- To refrain from the wanton giving of offense
- To live by honour and for glory
- To despise pecuniary reward
- To fight for the welfare of all
- To obey those placed in authority
- To guard the honour of fellow knights
- To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
- To keep faith
- At all times to speak the truth
- To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun
- To respect the honour of women
- To never to refuse a challenge from an equal
- To never to turn the back upon a foe.
One theme not expressed here is that a chivalrous person should never sacrifice chivalry for expediency, which was added to the later versions of the code. Billy certainly violated this, in addition to several of the above laws of chivalry.
Perhaps one of the upcoming Dragons books could include a formal code of chivalry. All too often, it's much too ambiguous of an idea.
You might be interested in the Code of a Knight that I included in my book, "Spit and Polish for Husbands/Becoming Your Wife's Knight in Shining Armor." I put together some of the most important points of the code from my own research and explained how men of today can apply them.
Last edited by Clefspeare, 1/26/2005, 9:49 am
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Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24)
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1/26/2005, 9:49 am
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WarriorPoet
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Re: Chivalry or future self-defense?
Nice advertisement opportunity there. 
I'll have to check that out. Is this something that could be included in future publications of the books, say, alongside Merlin's prophecy, the map of the undreground lab ect...?
--- How do you learn to live? Prepare for death.
How do you prepare for death? Learn to live.
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1/26/2005, 2:12 pm
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Zilla Tatsushin
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Re: Chivalry or future self-defense?
All I'mn saying and sticking with is that honorable warfare is superior to a stab in the back, though a stab in the back has its proper time. This is why I practise Bushido as opposed to Ninjetsu.
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1/29/2005, 2:26 pm
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