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Uiru
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Re: Will we ever get a fully dubbed RPG?
I don't even know where to start with you.
Let's try the top.
Regarding NISAmericalover#: Go back and find some of his old posts. If you can't tell this kid is trolling, welcome to the Internet. Also, I don't actually use the karma system.
"This is about the preferences of the majority, and what is projected to be the most successful for the company!"
A majority is made up of individuals. I would be okay with the entire world being sub-only, but I appreciate that others prefer dubs and thus I advocate the choice being made available wherever possible. As opposed to some people, who want their preference and ONLY their preference.
"Doesn’t that just strike you as being a bit funny?"
I was considering putting "in my opinion" in front of every sentence of this post, but decided not to.
"Fully dubbed games are rare. You don’t come upon something that reads every non-menu line to you often."
We're not talking about 'fully dubbed' as in 'every word is spoken' (though for an example, see the English-only FFX), we're discussing 'fully dubbed' as in 'nothing missing from the original Japanese version'. In this instance, Disgaea PSP (in English) would be considered 'fully dubbed' while Disgaea DS would not be. In THIS regard, most games are already fully dubbed in English. (Rendering this -entire- argument a pointless waste of time.)
Oh, by the way, you'd have a much harder time realizing anything was missing if you didn't have the complete Japanese track/subtitles along with it (unless it was a colossal accident like AT2). Funny about that!
"Now it’s going to be released in a country that speaks a different language. There’s only enough space for one voice track. Now what’s it going to be? Sub? Or dub?"
Go ahead and name ONE game that was released sub-only (in English). Muramasa isn't out yet (I don't think) so you can't use that one. Go ahead. One. Then, consider the list of games that are dub-only, and then the list that have both (but one imperfect), and THEN the list that have both perfect. There is NO shortage of dubbed games. The sub fans have much more to complain about, if you look at this objectively.
"...loyal customers and to make a profit, and you're just going to have to accept it"
Loyal customers (the beneficial kind, anyway) tend to be the last people on Earth who just "accept it". If you aren't new to the Internets, you might be new to this board, so you missed the AT2 hate parade that (rightfully so) went on for months. I returned mine, then sold my AT1 for massive profit.
The irony of the whole situation is that you wrote that wall of text defending a knob while our points of view are roughly the same.
~Uiru
Last edited by Uiru, 9/7/2009, 7:34 am
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9/7/2009, 7:32 am
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BecauseIcan
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Re: Will we ever get a fully dubbed RPG?
I would love to have a choice if possible. Makes everyone happy, but the budget, limitations, etc can't make it happen. My preference is dub, but the thing with sub fans is that they always have a "choice" technically, by buying the import. Dub fans don't have such a thing, thus there's no alternative.
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9/7/2009, 8:55 am
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Marionette
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Re: Will we ever get a fully dubbed RPG?
quote:
BecauseIcan wrote:
I would love to have a choice if possible. Makes everyone happy, but the budget, limitations, etc can't make it happen. My preference is dub, but the thing with sub fans is that they always have a "choice" technically, by buying the import. Dub fans don't have such a thing, thus there's no alternative.
Buying an import is not the same thing. It's only been recent that -some- systems allow importing without hacking. Some people may not even know the other language, they may just simple like the sound of it better. Saying the import is an alternative for people who want it 'subbed' is incorrect for there are no "subs".
Uh, anyway, in the end it's usually not even a matter of space on a CD. Games like Persona 4 I can understand, as they are heavily dialogue based, but there's always a ton of spare room on a DVD for most NISA releases. It's just about the resources NISA employs to try to make the game fully dubbed or what they feel is important/not important to keep in a game. Even if they removed the Japanese language feature, that doesn't promise that there will be a completely dubbed game. As long as there's dialogue, you don't technically need the actual voicing.
And completely unrelated, but Muramasa did come out last week (Friday). Been trying to play it, but I got sick this weekend. 
--- The world is not beautiful,
therefore it is.
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9/7/2009, 9:35 am
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BecauseIcan
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Re: Will we ever get a fully dubbed RPG?
I meant Japanese VA=sub, so sorry for that confusion! Didn't mean to imply subtitles in that sense.
I have known some people to buy a Japanese console for playing Japanese games though. Especially those in the RPG department. The option is there though if you truly want to reach for it. Not to mention Youtube vids and such for seeing said cutscenes with JPN VA. Those aren't there for dub fans.
Not to mention translated FAQs along with translated game scripts(which I have used for a few Japanese only games) for those who want to play.
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9/7/2009, 10:38 am
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grgspunk
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Re: Will we ever get a fully dubbed RPG?
Technically speaking, Daverost and NISAmericaLover are correct in that a localization effort should put forth a dub that allows users of the English language to understand what is going on.
What some people don't seem to get is the fact that the sub fans themselves aren't responsible for the recent issues involving the incomplete dub tracks--NISA didn't leave their recent dub tracks incomplete because they somehow believe sub fans are superior to the dub fans, it's because they lack the resources to create a full dub. There's no rabid group of fanatical sub fans that burst into their offices and threatened to kill them if they didn't prioritize the JP audio tracks--It's was a matter of weighing the costs/benefits associated with the production of a dub.
When they license a game, they already have access to the full JP track from the very beginning: It's already complete, ready to go and putting them in isn't as costly. On the other hand, if they need to put a dub track, they have to find and hire entirely new actors that often get paid by the hour--Creating your own voice acting is very expensive and it gets more costly if your script is longer.
Considering the fact that putting a dub track is very expensive, their audience is a very small niche and they don't have as much money (especially in this economy), they're going to think a full dub isn't going to justify the costs for. Take a look at the current anime market as an example: The companies' budgets are getting more and more tight, so a lot of them are choosing to opt out of spending large amounts of money creating a dub track in their localizations if they aren't absolutely sure if the title is going to be a big hit (e.g. Bandai Ent and Sentai Filmworks).
Ar Tonelico 2 was probably the worst case scenario, as they got on the bad side of both sub and dub fans. Not only they couldn't afford to make a full dub, they didn't even have the space to implement an incomplete dub. They ended up cutting large amounts of the sub track to fit the two tracks and ended up pissing off both dub and sub fans. That gives a clear indication that they don't usually intend to prioritize dub or sub fans over one another, as they ended up screwing both of them over--It was a lack of resources that made them choose to create such a compromise.
To be perfectly honest though, I'd say they should probably take a short-term loss and release a non-NIS title with full dub/sub tracks to reinstate fan confidence. They could use a little more hype in the long run.
quote:
I meant Japanese VA=sub, so sorry for that confusion! Didn't mean to imply subtitles in that sense.
I have known some people to buy a Japanese console for playing Japanese games though. Especially those in the RPG department. The option is there though if you truly want to reach for it. Not to mention Youtube vids and such for seeing said cutscenes with JPN VA. Those aren't there for dub fans.
Not to mention translated FAQs along with translated game scripts(which I have used for a few Japanese only games) for those who want to play.
Dude, not even the most hardcore importers find it very practical to play a game and simultaneously look at a translated script FAQ to try and see what someone is saying in a game. The only use for those things is for reference, not as a text substitute. In fact, the people who buy imported copies of RPGs and play it for more than just the gameplay probably know how to speak/read the actual language itself, which is not usually the case with most "sub" fans. If you don't know the language yourself, using an FAQ to find out what's being said (especially in a text-heavy game) is not going to help much either, especially considering the fact that there's no indication that you're even looking at the right page/paragraph in the FAQ while you're playing the game.
Plus, you have to deal with looking through the options, item names and stats which are often not mentioned in translated FAQs. Unless a game hardly has much text at all (which is never usually the case with NIS RPGs), I fail to see how the option to import gives most sub fans much of an advantage in choices over dub fans. Most of them want JP audio not because they know the language, but they want it because they think it sounds better to them--It's just a matter of preference.
Last edited by grgspunk, 9/7/2009, 12:59 pm
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9/7/2009, 12:10 pm
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BecauseIcan
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Re: Will we ever get a fully dubbed RPG?
I can see it being an issue for some, especially if they know nothing of the language. I do know some of the language to get by, so I'm probably not in that demographic. I just encountered some good translation FAQs and such and was able to understand the main storyline. I know some others even print it out, but I get where you're saying.
But I feel people are missing my point on what I'm trying to say. Yes, its a preference that we all understand here, but as long as there are Japanese copies around, on Youtube, undubs to get full JPN audio, etc, those who like that option will always have those voices. Their choice of hearing is cemented. If a dub is not made, well, dub fans don't have it, lol! Can't upload dub cutscenes if they were never made.
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9/7/2009, 12:40 pm
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grgspunk
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Re: Will we ever get a fully dubbed RPG?
So what exactly is your point? To the typical sub fan, you either get a game with English text and Japanese audio or not--Nobody can rely on anyone making undubs (much less find seeds to download them), nor can anyone be satisfied with watching a low-quality Youtube video over actually playing it, especially if there's no English text.
If NISA decides to leave a dub incomplete, it's their own fault for doing so--What do the sub fans have anything to do with it if NISA can't even get the money to make a full dub?
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9/7/2009, 12:50 pm
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BecauseIcan
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Re: Will we ever get a fully dubbed RPG?
I was just reading the thread on how some brought up dub only releases, satisfying fans, "majority of X type fans" and more. Just thought I'll throw my opinion and such. That's all. Didn't mean for peeps to get off road. 
Also, people can import/get translation patch/other technical knowhow, etc. Also people can go to other Youtube type websites to get their HQ vids, not to mention people can put subtitles on said video as it has happened before. I know I encountered some even knowing the NA release was around the corner. Simply using a video walkthrough to help familiar themselves when they get the game, just plenty of options. Just saying, if one chooses to flex their muscle in that road, they can achieve it.
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9/7/2009, 1:07 pm
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grgspunk
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Re: Will we ever get a fully dubbed RPG?
The thing about it is, the stuff you mentioned isn't much of a choice to most sub fans because it isn't actually going out to the store, buying the game and playing it, it involves either paying enormous shipping costs, watching someone else playing the game or using potentially illegitimate means to get it.
It's not just about playing the game with the original language either, it's also about acknowledgement--It's far more satisfying to sub fans if they get a legitimate release with a sub track because they'll know that they actually matter in the eyes of the localization company. The exact same can be said with dub fans, who'd be much more satisfied if they got a full dub track in a release, becuase they'll know that they too also matter in the eyes of the company.
Last edited by grgspunk, 9/7/2009, 1:19 pm
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9/7/2009, 1:17 pm
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BecauseIcan
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Re: Will we ever get a fully dubbed RPG?
I was mainly talking of the bare bones minimum of said choices that sub fans are always safe. You know what I mean? Bottom of the barrel, English text with English VA, but can always look up JPN VA because its never going to go away. Ties up with the anime thing as well. You'll always have access to said JPN VA, as that is the game/anime of origin. Dub fans of both mediums don't have that cemented security. Just talking of bare bones though.
quote:
It's not just about playing the game with the original language either, it's also about acknowledgement--It's far more satisfying to sub fans if they get a legitimate release with a sub track because they'll know that they actually matter in the eyes of the localization company. The exact same can be said with dub fans, who'd be much more satisfied if they got a full dub track in a release, becuase they'll know that they too also matter in the eyes of the company.
I agree to that. Choice is always the best thing.
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9/7/2009, 1:46 pm
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