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Lights
Deck Officer
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Re: Queen Mary, Part 2
Actually, it is my understanding that ice is very hard to spot with radar and sonar, so they may not have seen the berg in time to dodge it, even with modern navigational aids.
Also, there were maneuverability issues with the Olympic-class vessels that have been largely attenuated in more modern ships by rigging the ship with rudders for each screw (propeller). Had Titanic been equipped with such a multiple rudder system, she would likely have been much more maneuverable. A ship gets much of its maneuverability from the passage of water over the propellers. The Olympic-class ships had a centre screw rigged directly in front of the rudder. The problem was that it worked only in "ahead" mode. When the engines were put "full-astern", that centre screw was put out of action, making Titanic even less maneuverable than she was to begin with.
As for "stopping on a dime", there is no way that anyone could have done that with an Olympic-class ship. A ship the size of Titanic would take a fair bit of time to slow and stop, even empty. Loaded as she was with crew, passengers, fuel, cargo and provisions, she would have taken even longer to stop. The weight of the ship and her contents would have provided more forward momentum than that shown in her stopping tests, so in addition to her sea trials being too brief in duration, stopping times would have been off by a bit...and it is often the bit that spells the difference between a close shave and disaster. Even at the times displayed when stopping her during her sea trials, Titanicwould not have been able to stop in time to avoid the berg.
I rather doubt that QM2 was able to "stop on a dime", either. Large ships simply do not work that way. It is possible that she was able to stop quickly compared to older ships--that I can believe.
Just a note on sea trials here. Titanic's sea trials lasted less than a day. In comparison, the sea trials of SS United States lasted a good six weeks. I can only assume that the builders felt that she was an Olympic-class ship so that what was true of Olympic must be true of her sister-ship as well. Unfortunately, no two ships are alike. You can build them in the same slip, with the same workers, and identical materiel, and they will still have differences between them. Daft, I know, but true.
There was an alternative manoeuvre which Murdoch could have used, which would have increased his ability to turn and that would have been to put the port screw full astern and kept the starboard screw at full-ahead. Also, the centre screw would still have been working, thus increasing the maneuverability of Titanic. However, that was never done during sea trials. (I have tried this maneuver on a bridge simulator, and I still couldn't avoid hitting the berg--now admittedly my reflexes aren't the same as Murdoch's, but others who seemed to have better reflexes than I still couldn't stop it.
Last edited by Lights, Jun/16/2006, 3:53 pm
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Jun/8/2006, 12:24 pm
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Mr Titanic
Spirit of the Night
Location: Gotham City
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Re: Queen Mary, Part 2
A very fine post indeed, Lights, with much factual information and logic. I agree. The Titanic did have manuvering issues, and the mommentum attainted by moving an object as large as the Titanic at 21 knots is difficult to overcome once a complete hault is required. The more complex a rudder system is, the better the ship's ability to manuver is. The idea is that more steel is present for the water from the propellers to hit off of and be directed in a certain direction. Providing Titanic's speed that night, it could have been used as an advantage for a sharp, quick turn. Esstenailly it was as Lights mentioned the idea that the center propeller was ineffective in steering the ship. But we must also remember the engines were stopped (regardless of whether or not they were reversed) and that also occupied precious time, and let's credit Murdoch with an emergency situation during low visibilty. He wasn't responsible for a ship alone, he was responsible for the many souls aboard her as well. Therefore, he stopped the engines likely trying to kill off speed, because the ship was moving too fast, and logically tried to get out of the way of something directly in his path. With only a few seconds to react and the engine room not prepared* to take instant orders, it was difficult to apply the best possible actions because a plan didn't exist and anything large enough to sink the ship wasn't expected to be seen until long before the Titaic closed in on it. Besides, no one truely expected the ship to sink, and ship's hadn't previously for 40 years.
Titanic will always be advanced for her time, but she never was, just like any other ship of her time, ready to deal with such a situation.
We have planes that monitor ice as well.
* The engine room didn't have all their hands on the controls for an immediate reaction, like in the test trials. We must also remember the Titanic has been analyzed to get this information, and in that momment not all the knowlege available was nessesarily thought of. We can know how to steer a ship, but doing it is an entirely different story.
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Jun/14/2006, 3:44 pm
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Lights
Deck Officer
Location: Anyplace on Water
Posts: 637
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 Re: Queen Mary, Part 2
<<Besides, no one truely expected the ship to sink, and ship's hadn't previously for 40 years.>>
Well, actually they had (witness Naronic and Republic), but in the 20 years or so preceeding the Titanic disaster, ship travel had become incredibly safe. I have read figures someplace that claim that in those 20 years, something like 9 million passengers had crossed the Atlantic and fewer than a dozen had died as a result of accidents at sea.
<<* The engine room didn't have all their hands on the controls for an immediate reaction, like in the test trials. We must also remember the Titanic has been analyzed to get this information, and in that momment not all the knowlege available was nessesarily thought of. We can know how to steer a ship, but doing it is an entirely different story.>>
Agreed, Mr Titanic. Engineers were spread throughout the engine rooms and other parts of the tank top, seeing to the maintainance of electrical systems, the pumping of water throughout the ship, etc.
Plus, a ship such as Titanic would have not been easy to stop, even with a full crew on hand. First the steam pressure would have had to be brought down, thus slowing the pistons enough to enable them to be set full-astern. Then there would be a wait of I would think at least a couple of minutes to actually get the screws back up to speed. In the meantime, the turbine engine would have to be cut off as well.
As always this is hindsight, but the bridge, in the person of Smith, Lightoller, or Murdoch should have sent word down to the engine rooms that orders for this manoevre, also known as a "crash stop", might become necessary during the night and early morning hours. This would have saved some time, but I don't think enough time unfortunately.
 
Last edited by Lights, Jun/15/2006, 7:42 pm
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Jun/15/2006, 10:46 am
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Mr Titanic
Spirit of the Night
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 1356
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Re: Queen Mary, Part 2
Quote:
Well, actually they had (witness Naronic and Republic), but in the 20 years or so preceeding the Titanic disaster, ship travel had become incredibly safe. I have read figures someplace that claim that in those 20 years, something like 9 million passengers had crossed the Atlantic and fewer than a dozen had died as a result of accidents at sea.
Very true indeed, however with the Naronic, she wasn't equipped with radio (the Titanic however, was) and no one truly knew what happened to the ship at the time. The Republic did sink, but only three lives were lost due to the collison, and not the sinking. There hadn't been a great maritime disaster for forty years I should have stated, and my number is based on counting forward from the sinking of the RMS Atlantic. If you think about it, the Naronic issue was rather opaque, and the Rupublic's encounter was due to fog. Safety issues was not the primary cause of the deaths. The Republic also had a radio, and her passengers and crew were saved, unlike the Naronic or 2/3 of the Titanic.
Quote:
Agreed, Mr Titanic. Engineers were spread throughout the engine rooms and other parts of the tank top, seeing to the maintainance of electrical systems, the pumping of water throughout the ship, etc.
Plus, a ship such as Titanic would have not been easy to stop, even with a full crew on hand. First the steam pressure would have had to be brought down, thus slowing the pistons enough to enable them to be set full-astern. Then there would be a wait of I would think at least a couple of minutes to actually get the screws back up to speed. In the meantime, the turbine engine would have to be cut off as well.
As always this is hindsight, but the bridge, in the person of Smith, Lightoller, or Murdoch should have sent word down to the engine rooms that orders for this manoevre, also known as a "crash stop", might become necessary during the night and early morning hours. This would have saved some time, but I don't think enough time unfortunately.
Excellent technical account. I agree, the meathod of stopping the engines and then making up for lost steam was inefficent. The Titanic was also very large, going very fast on a calm ocean without very much time to spare, so the mommentum was too great to ware off suddenly. Even if the Engines were completely stopped in time, the Titanic would have likely suffered a head on collision because she would still go forward. A crash stop announcement would have helped, but as you stated it really wouldn't matter anymore. The idea is, the ice either had to be spotted sooner, or the ship had to have been traveling slower, and neither took place.
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Jun/15/2006, 2:09 pm
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Lights
Deck Officer
Location: Anyplace on Water
Posts: 637
Rivets: 17 (+17/-0)
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Re: Queen Mary, Part 2
Agreed on both the Naronic andRepublic sinkings--think I was just being too technical here...and actually the sinking of La Bourgoigne (excuse my really BAD French spelling lol) pretty much does in the low casualties though in retrospect, ship travel was still a reasonably safe thing by the time of TITANIC
Agreed on the engine orders...the only way to avoid the disaster would have been to slow Titanic, quite obviously an option which did not enter anyone's mind that night.
Last edited by Lights, Jun/15/2006, 7:41 pm
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Jun/15/2006, 7:37 pm
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Mr Titanic
Spirit of the Night
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 1356
Rivets: 13 (+13/-0)
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Re: Queen Mary, Part 2
You hit the nail right on the head thee Lights. Only four lives were lost on the Atlantic before the Titanic diasters, according to the Book "Unsinkable." So one can assume a high sense of faith in technology was expeted, just as we think that humans can accomplish anything because we've been to space and the moon. But the reality of the matter is, events like Titanic, Challenger and the ancient Thera explosion of Atlantis just comes to show we will always be at the mercy of God, nature, or a higher power.
It was destiny the ship sink, and it brought much more positive than it did negative in my opinion.
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Jun/15/2006, 9:45 pm
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Lights
Deck Officer
Location: Anyplace on Water
Posts: 637
Rivets: 17 (+17/-0)
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Re: Queen Mary, Part 2
I have thought long on the subject of the sinking and I believe it was an accident waiting to happen. If not TITANIC, then some other ship...and possibly there would have been an even greater loss of life.
I think that in the long run the sinking did to more good than harm since we owe many of the SOLAS regulations as a direct result of the TITANIC disaster.
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Jun/16/2006, 1:22 am
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